This is a dialogue between myself and the physicist Maciej Lewenstein. Moderates Irene Lapuente. This dialogue was part of “Hybrid ecosystems in an urban landscape”, a cycle curated by La Mandarina de Newton in the gardens of the Julio Muñoz Ramonet Foundation to explore the intersections of science, art, journalism and citizen participation, in the framework of ISEA 2022. Paul Thomas is a Professor at UNSW Art and Design and is currently the Director of the Studio for Transdisciplinary Art Research (STAR). Maciej Lewenstein is a theoretical physicist and ICREA Research Professor at Institut de Ciències Fotòniques (ICFO).